My last post about the collision between the Greek and Turkish airplanes (there are reports that the Turkish one might not have been an F16 but an F4 with spying capabilities) got me in trouble with a couple of fellow Greeks.
There was a comment about the loooong history of warfare in the region, from the ancient times. Yes, I agree with Tom that it’s not easy to forget the past but if there is something that history teaches us is that animosity and confrontation always bring misery and always at the cost of prosperity, at the cost of advance in all fronts of society. People should work together, they should collaborate, especially if they are neighbors (BTW Tom, I am “Savas” and not “Stelios” 🙂
And then there was this comment by Dimitris B. This is a translation from Greeklish (the phonetic use of the Latin alphabet to capture Greek words) so I hope I am accurately capturing the comment’s intentions.
“Your critique is exceptionally immature and provocative!!! If you didn’t understand, the Turkish airplane was a spying one and the Greek airspace was violated! One of our pilots was lost. To leave Greece in order to pursue a career is called immigration, to forget your roots and not to take a position in order to have a good relationship with the Turkish there is called treason. I am disappointed because I thought you were a serious person…”
And an ‘unknown’ continues by commenting on the above comment…
“What did you expect? That he’d be a serious person?”
I find the comments totally unjustified. I don’t know the people who commented and I suspect they don’t know me personally either. They don’t know how much I love my country. Just ask Jim who was very surprised when I was ready to go back to Greece to fight for my country as things were escalating in the mid 90s between Greece and Turkey. Gladly nothing happened.
I lived in the UK enough years to be able to apply for citizenship but I preferred to return to Greece in order to do my military service in 2001 (it’s still mandatory in Greece for all men). That was at a huuuuuuge career cost, especially given the totally unrelated stuff I was doing at the army. Having an MSc and a PhD in Computing Science, and having done post-doc research work and R&D for HP I found myself cleaning toilets, washing dishes, pealing potatoes while other inexperienced kids with the ‘right’ connections were part of the army’s Information Technology and Research division. I am not complaining, everyone has to contribute in all aspects of the military life but I am sure that my skills could have been applied in a better way and my time could have been used more creatively.
Had I tried to legally avoid doing the military service back then? Yes, I had looked for opportunities (the drafting law enables really strange cases like serving for 3 months at a NATO country’s armed forces instead). I couldn’t take advantage of any note of the law so I decided to go back instead of illegally staying abroad like so many other Greek scientists. I wanted to make sure that I obeyed the laws of my country so I can go in and out of it without any problems. I did my duty and I moved on. I do not accept the characterization of a “traitor” and I do not allow anyone (especially when they are anonymously expressing their opinion) to question my love for my country just because I have an opinion that is in favor of peace, of people working together, of people being good neighbors. Why couldn’t we live together with the Turkish nation and help each other like when the Greek rescuers were the first ones to help with the Istanbul earthquake few years ago and the Turkish were the first ones to arrive and help at the Athens earthquake only few months later?
I did not take sides in my previous post. I said that both sides (politicians and military but not the people) were equally to blame for the continuing animosity and for events like yesterday’s one. And no… I don’t know of any Turkish here but this has definitely not been by choice. It just hasn’t happened yet.
The most important part of this story and unfortunately the saddest one is that a young Greek pilot was lost.
4 responses to “Apparently I am a traitor and not a serious person”
1)One can disagree with someone else but the way he will express his opinion reflects the level of his culture and democratic values.
Disagreement should be supported with arguments not with “names” (traitor, not a serious person etc).
2)I do not recognise to anyone the right to consider himself “National Patriotism Contractor” and call traitors the ones that do not agree with him.
Now on the issue (jet collision) itself:
In my opinion the problem starts from the fact that Turkish goverment does not have any real control on its generals.
It seems there are indepentant centers of power in Turkey. For example the goverment makes an agreement for piece and friendship etc and the same day FULLY armed turkish F16 violate Greek airspace.
Their practice of sending armed jets intruding greek airspace on a daily basis is inconsistent with the country’s efford to reform and enter EU.
Moreover this practice sustains a mini cold war between the 2 countries supporting the US weapons industry (since we both buy weapons from them)and the dependance of both countries to the U.S.A.
Everytime that the US goverment wants to attack a nearby country (Serbia, Iraq etc) neither Greece nor Turkey has a choice other than to support (use of military bases on their ground etc)since they are both NATO countries.
Apart from the compromise of indepence which is the greatest damage, without all this the Aegean would be the location of the world’s heaviest tourist industry and more money would be spent in education, infrastucture rather than weapons.
Also since 1990 4 pilots (2 greeks – 2 turks) died in accidents – falls caused during virtual dog fights – interceptions over the Aegean.
What I obviously mean is that in this game we both (Greece – Turkey)lose.
In the meantime a hero father of 2 fell on the line of duty.
I am glad the Turk pilot is Ok since he was only a soldier following orders from his superiors.
It is them, the Turkish Military (not the nation, not even the goverment) that I consider responsible.
So dear Savas it seems I partly disagree with you on who is to blame on the incident but I am not questioning your seriousness or your love for your country.
Knowing you for so many years I am in the position to say that if all Greeks were as serious as you are and loved their country as much as you do our country would be a (even) better place.
Best Regards
Hey Savas!
First let me say that you ARE a serious person (just for expressing your view as you did in the previous post) and you are NOT a traitor.
Coming for a similar (at least in a few ways) country – Israel – I can sympathize with some of your feelings (although our sitautation is a bit more complex, having a bit more than one country after us 😉 ).
As to Vasilis comment, Countries saying that they will do X and Y in a peaceful manner and then send a spy plane is very common in almost everywhere.
I’m not sure how things go in the Turkish army but with my knowledge of how things work in some of the countires in the middle east, sending a spy plane into another country’s air space usually requires confirmation from the Security Minister and/or Prime Minister.
Since there is not peace agreement between Greece and Turkey this two face arrangment is probably being made on both sides. Talking nicely with one face and sending a spy plane in another.
I don’t know how old is the Greed pilot and I don’t know the exact causes of the accident, but if this was indeed an F4 vs. F16 there is no justification for a crash.
Technically speaking if the F4 was a spy plane it was not armed heavily, which means that the F16 could (which is sometimes used as an interception plane) easily take down the F4 (or at least lock on it) and the F4 pilot would probably back down.
I suspect that the heated disscussion here might also be reflected in the Greek and Turkish pilots behavior making them both NOT back down thus causing the crash.
It’s tough being a hot headed middle eastern (and believe me, I know 😉 ).
Just for your info according to Greek media
the 2 planes that crashed were a turkish and a greek F16.
A turkish formation of a spying F4 and 2 F16 fighters escorting it (fully armed), entered greek airspace and then the FIR of Athens (without submiting flight plan of course) and were heading to the greek island of Crete to take pictures of Greek anti aircraft misile system S-300 which is installed there.
Surprising as it may sound the turks do this MONTLHY to get fresh pictures.
2 greek F16 went there to recognise them and to intercept them . If I understood corect the practice is supposed to be that they fly paralel to take the numbers of the turkish jets and check what photographic or other equipment they were carrying. No one is 100% sure how the accident happened exactly but it was between 2 F16 for sure.
Some say they got into a virtual fight trying to “lock” each other and somehow they crashed. Others say that the turkish plane did fast manouvers in order not to allow to the Greek jet to see his numbers etc and that he hit with his tale the cokpit of the Greek plane. This is how they try to explain that the Turk had the time to jump while the Greek didn’t.
But I think all this is only speculations.
The thing is that all these are very dangerous war games of 2 countries that are supposed to be “allies” (Nato memebers) and are trying to become “friends” (Greece supports the entrance of turkey in EU).
Yeia sou from a fellow traitor! or SHAG (self hating Greek)
My background and experience are similar to yours and I can vouch that army service was a huge drawback in my (eventually) successful attempt to enter a competitive profession (IB).Yet I did it. And still I don’t hate the Turks. The FIR issue is more complex than most people realise and dates back to when Karamanlis took Greece out of NATO following the Turkish invasion of Cyprus (see a good analysis in the relevant chapter of “Greece: The Modern Sequel” by two Greek academics; fellow traitors both of course and card carrying members of the antihellenic ELIAMEP to boot).
A few points:
1) The S300 are a mobile defence system hence the Turks’ constant (monthly) surveillance efforts.
2) Legally Turkey doesn’t have to recognise the Athens FIR post 1974 since they haven’t acquiesced to Greece getting her old FIR back after it re-entered NATO. Hence we are not blameless in this regard. All the more so, since the largest percentage of Greek scrambles are to intercept violations of our FIR as opposed to our airspace/territorial waters.
3) The whole Aegean issue is a sham thrown up by Turkey to strengthen its position vis- -vis Cyprus; the Turkish demands all antedate 1974. It will of course never be “solved” as long as the Cyprus issue remains open.
4) Greece’s request to take this to the international court in Hague has nothing to do with it’s perceived gain (in past disputes the IC has always ruled against the island party’s right and in favor of the continental one, in cases of territorial waters) and everything with it being a status quo power as well as the militarily weaker party and desiring to avoid at all costs military entanglements. Turkey of course is a revisionist power and possesses the stronger military, hence wishes to solve all issues on a bipartisan basis and without recourse to neutral bodies.
5) Turkey is hardly interested in the Aegean as such but mainly as a lever to force the Cyprus issue in its favor. Hence its reluctance to disengage the two as Greece has requested.
6) Greece being reasonable of course will not significantly alter Turkey’s stance since it’s perceived interests lie in it being an aggressive, militarily confident, revisionist actor. However as far as the FIR is concerned I don’t see why they can’t be accommodated, especially since they do have a legal point in this instance.
7) While I very much support Turley’s entry into the EU, I am not too confident that it will solve many issues (if any). A similar example, between Spain and Portugal, as well as between the UK and Spain points to a de-escalation as opposed to a solution, which is better than nothing I guess. The real reason though is that I would very much like to see Turkey open up to Greeks again, and Greeks resettling without fear of pogroms and persecution.